Can You Have Kids AND A Great Advertising Career?

I have 7 kids. Balance can be achieved. This should go hand-in-hand with Felix's article on advertising.

I think this article makes the assumption that more time = better work. But we all know that's not true.

Kids also can give you a purpose that goes beyond the next ad or campaign: A real commitment to your clients long term success which is one of the important ways you keep clients.

They also give you a new and deeper perspective on a variety of things that clients sell. Like medical care, insurance, cars, financial products, toys, vacations, food, restaurants and more.

Of course, you can intellectually understand all of these things, but that isn't the same as understanding these things through experience.

It's also made me look at award books quite differently. While I still appreciate spec work to demonstrate thinking, I have no patience for masturbatory fake ads and dismiss books with loaded with them. Award books, in particular.

I know this is an agency-centric site, but as far as work-life balance is concerned, working as a creative at a corporation is not a bad gig at all. I get to work on a variety of projects - from video to print ads to sales brochures - and still keep my sanity and 8-hour work days.

With children now in elementary school, I feel I've learned to be a much more efficient creative. I can squeeze in a pretty tight day by dodging the bullets of politics, multitasking in meetings, and pointless Internet surfing.

Which means that

Everyone has their own definition of "a great career". To some, a mass of awards makes a great career, to others, a big salary, and to some, having an extremely liberal schedule and minimum hours allowing them to spend as much time with their loved ones as possible. For me... family first. I vowed I would never share the feelings of my father who I heard tell my mother, when I was a little kid, that his career was more important than his family.

Yes.

Yes. Of course you can. There are people doing things way way way way way way way way way harder than advertising that do it everyday and never utter a single word of complaint. Putting a well-adjusted, educated and contributing member of society into the world will most likely surpass every achievement you ever hope to accomplish in advertising or any other career field. It may sound like a cliché but that's because it's the truth.

The birth of my son this year is still ten times more exciting than the launch of my business and loving him will always be first. When you strip it down to nothing all that you have is who you love and who loves you.

Don't let this ass-backwards world turn you around about what is really important. A career is a means to an end.

Unless you somehow achieve the super-human efficiency that Pops is talking about, your kids Inevitably feel it. Mine did. And I ended up quitting my full time gig and freelancing 20 hours a week. In my five short years in this business, the only people i can remember "balancing" a full time advertising job and kids effectively had someone else raising their offspring for them - day care, nanny, the grandparents etc. And invariably they fooled themselves into thinking that they've somehow pulled off the balance and they were great parents.

Please excuse me while i climb on my high horse for a second.

A better question might be, why did you (or do you want to) have kids? I don't mean that in a derogatory way. I honestly don't understand why many people even bother to procreate. What was it about kids that appealed to you? When you closed your eyes and imagined yourself as a parent, did you see visions of yourself enrolling them in one institution after another until they graduate college? Shuffling them from one caretaker to the next - from the time they can open their eyes? Or did you imagine raising a human being in your likeness - with your own hands - that you hope and pray will make the world a better place someday? I think that most people will say the latter but act as though it's the former.

The question should be "can you have great kids and an advertising career". Not the other way around.

in Denver?

@ Ad Mom,
I have two kids. I have bounced in and out of full time/freelance since they were born--3 to 6 months post birth really, because pumping in an office totally sucks. (However I know moms who travel internationally and do it on planes and in foreign countries...I digress...)

I can honestly say my kids can not tell the difference between when I am working full 40+ hours a week staff and when I am "working from home" trying to push a stroller and have a conference call at the same time. The fact is, I have to work. It's not a choice but a financial must. As a bonus, I happen to love my career and my kids, and I am 100% certain they are no worse for the wear.

It's completely stupid when people make comments about "other people raising their children". Yes I have a nanny, part time. Other hours, the kids are in school. And the other, majority of the hours remaining, I am with them. Teaching them values. Rocking them at 1:00 am when they wake up sick. Explaining why blueberries are a super food. Taking them to Good Will to make donations so they learn about giving back and helping other less fortunate. Opening bank accounts with them in their name so they understand the value of a dollar. Telling them to be thankful for what we have and not always ask for more. Marking the X on their chore chart when they compete a task so they get the idea of personal and family responsibility. Explaining why we don't leave the water running when we brush our teeth. Planting flowers together so we have meaningful experiences to share as we watch them grow together. Playing hide and go seek. Pretending we are garbage truck drivers because that seems like the coolest job in the world. Searching for dinosaur footprints as we hike around Red Rocks.

I am fully raising my children.

I am a better a mom because I work, I am a better creative, because I am a mom. And my daughter in particular, stands to benefit from having a positive role model. She knows women can do whatever men do, and the domestic chores don't automatically fall to the wife. I hope this helps her define her role as she is deciding who she wants to be and what she values.

Being a "great" parent is whatever works for my family, and whatever works for your family. I wish I were a better parent sometimes. I also felt that way when I wasn't working full time. I have plenty of friends who are stay at home moms who are not "great" parents. So get off that high horse. 5 short years in the business maybe wasn't long enough for you to figure it out. The perfect balance, when you have children, is ever illusive, no matter what you do. So, as women, let's not judge the difficult decisions we have to make, but support the decisions that work for each person and their particular situation. We can all be right.

Hey Ad Mom...

When you write "A better question might be, why did you (or do you want to) have kids?" And then follow it up with, "I don't mean that in a derogatory way." And then follow that up with, "I honestly don't understand why many people even bother to procreate." You, of course, do mean it in a derogatory way.

As the rest of your comment reveals.

And it's besides the point. The question is, to repeat, "Can you have kids AND a great advertising career?"

A few people have answered it pretty well. And others have questioned some of the assumptions in the question - like what is meant by "great".

Howard, I'm not sure what you're getting at. You don't wonder what motivated some people to have kids? Everyone has kids for the right reasons? You don't know anyone that did it because they thought it would save their marriage, or they were bored with life and thought that was simply the next step, or they wanted something to give their lives meaning? That's not at all my experience. Shit, half the people I know with kids couldn't give you a good reason whey they procreated and simply use their kids as ego extensions of themselves. I think she makes a very valid point.

Wow Peggy, there's some pretty transparent convincing of yourself in that argument but it's obvious that you care deeply and spend a lot of effort and time working toward being a good mom.

I too quit a full time job about a year after my wife had our second kid and have been freelancing in the mornings like Ad Mom. For me, I did notice a difference with my kids between working the 40+ office gig compared to working from home. It wasn't necessarily that they missed me during the day (which I'm sure they did, I love being here when my 5 year old is done with school) but the abstract pressure of a full time gig - the responsibility and residual stress of the deadlines and presentation prep etc etc - that's what took the toll. Not only would i not be around until 6pm but often times i wasn't very attentive when I was there. I played it off for a good year and thought i could get a handle on it - but eventually i fessed up and admitted I couldn't do both. The wife and I are very happy with the decision and honestly, if you do it right, it's only a minor financial hit.

It's been my experience that most people who don't have kids have no idea of the work involved, especially during the Bodily Function years (diapers, barfing, etc.). Also, no idea of the very deep emotional and psychological rewards of being a parent. NO. IDEA. Always seemed a little ridiculous to me to judge that with which someone has no experience - or to suggest that a richer, kid-filled life was a "lesser" path than long nights prepping for a pitch. :)

Some shops are very family-friendly and recognize that good work comes from happy, balanced employees. Some are sweatshops that seek out and hire the young and single and then shamelessly grind them into dirt. I've worked at both ends of the spectrum, while both single and married - you CAN have great work AND balance. But it's not always easy to find.

- Eric Weaver (Edelman, DDB, FCB, Y&R, Wunderman)

A "richer, kid-filled life". Geeze, talk about a high horse. I like to think that any direction someone chooses, if perused with passion, love and intellectual curiosity leads to a rich life. The idea that adding offspring to your family somehow makes you a deeper individual is laughable.

It doesn't matter if you you choose to add to the population with kids of your own and spend your entire life in Highlands Ranch going to soccer games - or you take years off at a time to travel the world in the peace corp, it depends on how you do it and what motivates your choices that really determines if your life is 'rich' or not.

Wow. I don't think you people get it. The whole frustration that people without kids have towards people with kids is that the one's without kids has to pick up the slack. I worked with people who were out of the office at least once a week dealing with a sick kid or going to a school function. And once a week was a good week. I needed to get approval and direction from these people and they were hard to get a hold of outside the office. And the work environment encouraged them to take time off for their children to the detriment of the work.

Just think twice before you run out and attend to your children. Are you leaving someone else with responsibilities that you really should attend to?

Also, honestly, I don't want to hear how great you think your kids are. How fulfilled your life is with kids. Just like you don't want to hear about how smart my dog is.

Whether or not you have a great advertising career isn't dependent upon if you have kids or not. It's dependent upon whether you have passion for your career, a strong work ethic, and a modicum of talent. Then again that applies to nearly every career.

As for what it takes to raise great kids? There is no right answer. Most of us simply try to do our best and figure it out on the way. Obviously the dynamic is different if you are married vs if you are a single parent. I can only imagine how difficult it is to go it alone.

"Also, honestly, I don't want to hear how great you think your kids are. How fulfilled your life is with kids. Just like you don't want to hear about how smart my dog is."

Or about the "very deep emotional and psychological rewards of" going to Nepal for three weeks. Boy do they like to change the subject when you start to talk about your mind expanding travel. That's my technique for combating the "I know all parents say this, but billy is just so smart!" conversations. Works like a charm.

Ahh, I see I've stumbled into a "friendly" online community.

I don't recall talking about how great my kids are. But I have had the experience of working in this industry both with and without kids, and seen both sides. And I've probably worked harder when simultaneously juggling kids in order to have balance and to meet the same deliverables as everyone else.

Sorry that some folks are skipping out and making you unhappy. I'd suggest that's more of an indictment of your management team than parenting. Both parenting and advertising are both challenging endeavors. Until you've done both, why judge?

Unanonymously yours,

- e

Ya know, i've never minded that people skip out of work for school functions, sick kids, nanny issues etc - it really doesn't bother me. You either get your work done or you should be let go - regardless of what you're doing at home. However, can you imagine a childless person trying that with something they're into? Say I have a passion for Roller Derby - I am the team captain. It's about as relevant a pursuit to my career as making babies - yet whenever i need to jump up and run out of a meeting at 11am to talk to the Westword about an upcoming event, for some reason, I catch a ration of shit from my boss. It automatically seems silly and unreasonable to act like this at work. However, Bob's sick kid torpedos a planning session and somehow that garners nothing but sympathy and support. Maybe those that have chosen to keep their seed from spreading wouldn't feel so slighted if there was a little balance. Everyone gets a certain wiggle room to do their thing - regardless of weather or not it involves kids. Maybe it's the assumption that kids allow you to get away with anything that chaps most people's ass.

A job should support your lifestyle, not be you lifestyle. Kids or not.

90% of what we do is totally disposable and will be forgotten in short order. If thats important enough to spend 15+ hours a day along with weekends and holidays away from whatever is truly important to you then our industry is pretty fucked.

I don't like kids. I never wanted kids. Neither did my wife. So we never had kids. Lots of dogs, though.

And while I've never understood the desire to have a bunch of young 'uns, I've also never begrudged my partners for doing so. At least not since the very early part of my career. Back then it used to piss me off that the breeders (as we called them) got special treatment and/or privileges. (It also pissed me off that smokers could take a break whenever they wanted, but I'd get my balls busted for taking five minutes off to goof. But I digress...)

Maybe it comes with age, wisdom, or apathy, but nowadays, I just don't care. (I mean I don't care about your kids. I still care about the work.) Coworkers take off time to care for a sick kid or sit through a school play, I take time off to go camping or skiing. It's all about balance. About what makes you happy. And it all evens out in the end.

1. Not every person who has kids bails on their work responsibilities. Just like not every childless person comes into work hungover or takes kick-ass vacations when ever the hell they want to.

2. A work/life balance is justified for anyone regardless of the number of dependents they have. If your management team doesn't allow you to have a life it's time to evaluate where you work (if the benefit of having a life outweighs the benefits of working all the time). If you think that you're picking up an inordinate amount of the slack and your co-worker's outside commitments are negatively effecting the quality of work at your shop, speak up.

3. If you're taking direction form someone or you need their approval that more than likely means that they are your boss or higher up the food chain. Being able to have more control over your schedule is a benefit of seniority. Someday you'll have that flexibility and when you do you'll take advantage of it as much as you can.

Felix, great read as always. I was the guy with the "gun to their head' comment.

What I've seen and experienced at times that I was referencing in my comment to your earlier post was that often times folks don't come through with their messaging or concepts on time and are the same ones who bail early because they have to tend to the kids they chose to have. They aren't brainstorming while feeding their infants at home, or taking their kids to school, while several of us were left to pick up the pieces.

Clearly not all folks with kids are like this, and for sure, I think it's important that people DO spend time with their children. Both quality and quantity time. In some ways, I think there is a rant in the future that synthesizes your post about how much time we spend in our crazy advertising/marketing/design world vs. our balance with "real" life outside our "creative" world.

For sure it's important to do great work no matter what one field one is in, and it's even more important to have a quality home life. Hopefully, one can also enjoy the work one is doing while coming up with creative stuff. It's just a shame that some folks do ruin it for the good parent/workers by slacking and using their kids as human shields to avoid any flak that may come their way because of their poor work ethic or inability to balance their lives.

Thanks for bearing with that long comment. To paraphrase the good Dr. McCoy, I'm a designer, not a copywriter...

Cheers

I agree with Howard.

Having kids is the best thing someone in advertising can do in my opinion. Besides the obvious advantages of giving one perspective on life in general and being one of the reasons we’re put on this earth and being a ton of fun, kids also give you valuable insight into how so many things are purchased.

I can’t imagine doing an ad for say, a minivan, without having had kids. Or mac and cheese. Or…the list is endless.

And does anyone seriously work 15 hour days in advertising? If so you’re doing it wrong. Or you’re doing it at the wrong place. Advertising just isn’t that hard.

Yes advertising can be draining in ways other jobs aren’t. And to do it well does require an inordinate degree of focus and passion and energy. But that doesn’t necessitate being chained to your desk eating crap pizza at 10 at night.

That’s not advertising, that’s masochism.

This post has turned the comments section into a mixture of Mom's Like Me and The Denver Egotist.

Anywho... I feel like I'll throw in my own two cents. That's what a commenting board is for after all, right?

Here's my real-world retort to the comment above about workers with kiddo's taking time off from work because of sick kids and leaving others to pick up slack.

A place I freelance for has a full-timer that had to leave the office for long periods a bunch of times over the last month because 1) their dog got out of the back yard, 2) the dog ate a plate of chocolate cupcakes and got poisoned, and 3) the dog had a virus and lost a ton of weight and the person had to make sure doggie would eat throughout the day. We picked up the slack and made sure everything got done, and without any bad vibes towards the dog owner for having to attend to her loved one. That's what having a strong team-bond and having the right management is all about. Being civil and understanding of your co-workers life's outside of work's walls.

There will be times when life spills into work and when work spills into life. Sometimes you fall into a trap thinking that work is life. But what I've realized in the past few years after leaving my full-time job and starting my business is that your work shouldn't be your life. That causes depression and anxiety and oftentimes distorts the person into lacking common decency and civility towards others.

A job and career can be won or lost, it's never concrete. Your family and friends are, or should be.

That is an extreme case that most of us here have never heard of or seen happen in their work place. However, the sick kid, school play, parent teacher conference, soccer game, nanny issue BS happens every day. You're talking apples and apple sauce here. I get your point that as long as your team is strong and supportive whatever happens is handled but I would imagine that this type of arrangement is the exception rather than the rule. The dog owner is going to catch a load of shit from their coworkers if they have a sick dog - compared to a sick kid. I've experienced it myself. You send an email in the middle of the night to the team saying your at the vet, your pup is having breathing issues, you might be in late - and you end up with a bunch of "oh, is that code for the Bottle Flu these days" - where as the kid BS is untouchable. To me it's simple. The same treatment doesn't apply to kidless employees as it does to people with kids - they get away with murder and it's taboo to call them on it.

Lamn, I don't think it's too hard to figure out what I'm getting at. Most of the commenters here are addressing the question - Can you have kids and a GREAT advertising career?

It's the headline.

The question of why people have kids is altogether different. A question that can be asked no matter what you do for a living. And while it could inform an answer to this posts inquiry, here, it wasn't asked honestly or with curiosity. It was asked with an unhelpful pejorative agenda in mind.

My dad made a living in advertising. He had 4 kids. We didn't see him much during the weekdays, but he was around on the weekends. He was more than successful. He actually retired from the business and put all of us through expensive colleges. While we might have wanted to see more of him, none of us today feels he was anything but a good parent. He was the best parent he could possibly be.

In my experience, most parents feel they could be better parents no matter what they do to pay the bills. It's part of being a fairly aware parent.

Anyway, as several people have noted, many long hours are due to poor management of resources caused by bad client relationships, using creative to decide strategy, poor communication, confused chains of command and bad planning.

Having kids won't change that, but it might make you rethink the way you work - and you might start working smarter.

But most people I know who had talent, initiative and commitment before they had kids still had it after. And plenty of people without kids punt when they don't feel like working on something.

I actually wonder if people with kids punt less often since they have a greater financial reason to hold onto a job. Though that would not necessarily make for a "GREAT" career.

I want it stated for the record: I still don't like children.

Yes. How many folks that head up the good firms in Denver have kids? That should answer the question.

Ugh, there's nothing more obnoxious than the ol' "why are kids any more important than my dog or my roller derby" statement. That's how the world works so just clam it. Baby humans > Dogs > Roller Derby -- end of story and you show just how immature/ignorant you are by even going there.

The deal is, it just depends. It depends on what kind of parent you want to be, what kind of relationship with your kids you want to have and how important your career is to your overall sense of worth/happiness/accomplishment. Personally, as soon as I had my first I couldn't figure out a way to work 55 hours or less at my agency without A) screwing my co-workers over and B) screwing my career path at said agency and I wasn't willing to forgo seeing my new favorite person for the joys of advertising. And by that time I realized I was kind of "over" the ad biz and wanted to try something different. I was lucky enough to find a new, interesting field with the right hours and great pay.

My personal assessment is that a "great" ad career comes at a cost and while you might feel balanced, you'll never know what kind of parent you could have been with 1/3 less hours put in at the agency. I never wanted to question that myself and so I got out. But I've seen plenty of great ad folks with great careers raise great kids. That is all.

And there you go, that sums it up right there. Someone is considered immature and ignorant for questioning the idea that one person's child related issues are more important than another individual's personal pursuits. That self important notion, that your kids or kids in general are what's important in the world is at the core of this issue. They're not. And the fact that you automatically consider your child rearing as more valid a cause than our Roller Derby (not Roller Derby for me mind you, I think Roller Derby is lame) clearly showcases your own immaturity and ignorance. But thanks for giving the issue such clarity with your condescending comments. It really helps wrap the whole thing up with a nice little bow.

It's the exact opposite of self-importance when you live for your child's well being and strive for their healthy upringing. Work, leisurely activities, hobbies and pets are important of course, just not really close to the same importance level... off by miles really.

There’s a theory about art and artists. And the question at the heart of this post assumes that this theory is true - only about advertising and creatives.

Kids get in the way.

They take up time. They take up energy. They take up money. They change your life focus.

Then there’s another theory. I’ll call it the Coppola Theory because he’s the first one I ever heard make it. (Though I'm sure he's not the only one to have made it.)

Kids make you better. Faster. More urgent. Precisely because all those things are true.

A parent who is a creative (in any industry) has something to prove that goes beyond "I'm clever/funny/smart/putyourgoalhere."

They have to prove they're good enough at what they do to make a good life for someone they're completely and totally responsible for.

That makes me a Coppola Theory acolyte.

It means I won't fit in at every agency - to be sure. But that was true before I became a parent, too, though for different reasons.

I don't know what other people's definition of a great career is, but for me, a career that doesn't somehow have room for kids in it, well, it's not going to be too great for me.

As to being resentful about agency folks who have kids - when I didn't have kids, I never cared why someone wasn't in the office. I was more Machiavellian about it. I looked at it as an opportunity to do more work that might get me somewhere.

I disagree Chris. Look up the psychology of having children and the natural selection of breeding. Your kids are little yous. Taking care of them is taking care of yourself. And it's a selected for practice embedded in you from when you were a hairy, knuckle dragging ape. Altruism doesn't exist.

malachy walsh makes a lot of sense IMHO

I'm with the Coppola theory malachy. It's all about family.

my biggest fear is making something i'm ashamed to show to my whip-smart 14 year old daughter.

having kids sharpens you up in a big way. kids are inspiring.

you can't wallow in your own shit anymore.

they just shit their diaper. now you have to deal with their shit. and forget about your shit.

no.

it is not even possible to have a great career in advertising with out personal sacrifices. being in a relationship means it's no longer just you that has to deal with the sacrifices. but putting a kid in the picture, changes the game entirely.

being good in this industry takes a lot of effort. being great, tenfold. same goes for family. so how is it possible to balance that? it's not. one will always suffer, or both equally. and if that's the case, then you're not really great at either one, are you?

for the single people complaining life isn't fair:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x81M3g3zjXc

Wow. What a great debate. There is some real fire in this one. It must have struck a chord with a lot of people. Great topic Egotist.

I still think it comes down to the individual. What you want to do and how you want to do it all depends on you and what you think you can handle.

As an expecting parent, I know everything is about to change in a way that I can barely imagine. But it's impossible for me to describe how excited I am and how much love I feel for my wife. We want to do this together.

And as a new business owner, I know I am in for some incredibly stressful times (they've already begun). But I want a rich and complicated life. I want to experience everything that I possibly can. I want to share parenthood with the woman I love more than anything. I want it all.

So many other people have done it. It all depends on the individual. I worked at a local agency for the last 4 years that was family orientated. The owners had children and I think they were good parents. That inspired me and made me think there was no reason I couldn't experience the degree of success I desired and also be a good husband and father at the same time. That inspiration set me off on the path I am on and I have zero regrets.

You have to strive to achieve some kind of balance in life. Be it in advertising or whatever. My wife is in the medical profession and worked like a dog to get to where she is. It's going to be a juggling act but I don't think I have met anyone, in any industry who had to do it any differently. Both of my parents worked very hard but they raised us the very best they could. That's exactly what we intend to do.

Really so long as people do their jobs and get done what needs to be done, who's business is it anyway? This industry is going to change so radically in the coming years that so many things we think now will be completely different in less than a decade. I think there is a lot of fear informing peoples attitudes towards this industry at the moment. It's projecting itself into a lot of peoples' outlooks.

Hopefully achieving a decent life balance for dogs, roller derby, kids, snowboarding, masturbating and whatever other bullshit you are into will fit into the picture. Technology should liberate us not enslave us. We have worked so hard, not just in advertising but as a country for so long and where has it gotten us? Our entire economy is in shambles. Some of that might have to do with working so hard that we forgot what we were working for. Hopefully some changes in structure and thinking are in order on a broader level. I have a lot of friends across the pond who might make less money than me, but boy do they live a helluva lot better life through being supported by a system that doesn't demand a slave mentality.

Alex Bogusky has kids. I'd bet you he's chilling with them right now counting the sweet deal he brokered literally hours before he parted ways with CP+B and MDC. And he's got nothing but time ahead of him now and plenty of decisions to make on how he wants to use it. And I'd imagine being a dad factors into that.

But coming back around to my original point, who's business is it anyway what kind of father he is considering what he accomplished? And why couldn't someone else do the same? To each his own. There should be room for us all. Kids, dogs, roller derby or no. It's between Mama and Papa, business owner and employee.

I met Shepard Fairey last year and I told him I was scared shitless of having kids. He asked me if I was educated, if both my wife and I's parents were still married, if my wife and I spoke multiple languages, if we loved eachother and if we felt we had stable careers. I said yes, and he answered, 'Please do the world a favor and have some kids already.'

Thanks for this post and such a great debate. I still think there is room for all types in this field. Parents or no.

Talk about condescending comments, Frank, yours are the worst.

Simply arguing my point "hope". I don't feel i've 'talked down' to anyone with any malice. I'm just trying to point out the hypocrisy and the hidden entitlement of some of these parents. I don't presume to know everything or have the answers to this debate but it's my opinion that the act of having children is not a selfless act - to the contrary, it's more often than not an institution entered into for selfish reasons - it's "i want kids" - not "the world needs my kids". That's my opinion and that's the point of view from which I'm arguing. Sorry if I sound like an asshole doing it.

Obviously no one's going to change their opinion on the point, but I must say that's a pretty bleak outlook on humanity. That argument can be made about anything, especially the industry we work in.

Consider this: I grew up with both parents working in the agency business in the 70s and 80s. My father was ALWAYS working, traveling or otherwise mentally occupied. He was very successful. He has come to regret nearly all of it.

Fast forward 30 -40 years and my wife and I now have a six month old. Both she and I lived for our careers, made life decisions around work, where we chose to live, etc., and never planned or considered having children. We looked down at the family types who left at 5 every day or need to be out frequently to care for their children, laughed openly at those who would encourage us to have kids.

Looking back from the other side, it's just something that escapes words. You cannot communicate to a non-parent what it's like, how it immediately changes your hierarchy of what matters. Really--I was a staunch non-believer.

But it's by far the most difficult and at the same time the most rewarding thing I have done. I understand and applaud the person who will sacrifice themselves for the work. But knowing what I now know, I also feel sad for the person for whom work, particularly advertising, is the end all be all of life. I've seen how this plays out and it's not great.

So, to the commenter who said something along the lines of work is not life but that which fuels your chosen lifestyle, I say right on. This is the perspective I have now and I and my family are all the better for it. I continue to do good work, and there certainly are weeks where I'm putting in 50-60 hours or more. But it's an exception.

Finally, to those who would say this view is hack, or I'm not putting in the effort it takes to be "great," I ask, what are you doing that's so great. Really, be honest. And secondly, if your not the next Alex B (again, be honest) what do you want on your tombstone?

Great post. One question though, what is on your tombstone? "He raised kids"? Are you saying that because you and your wife decided to multiply that your life has more meaning in the end? I dont have any kids, made a decision long ago that the world doesn't need another me in it - however i like to think i make a positive impact on the people around me and the greater good in my community. I volunteer at the library, for years I taught homeless families how to use the internet at the Goodwill Clubhouse, I help my grandmother take care of my ailing grandfather and I'm a generally good human being who tries to be a good friend to my fellow man. Is your tombstone any more glorious than mine? Or are you simply saying that people who are married to their work are missing out? Because that I can get behind.

Lisa S--exactly. Work is an aspect of life, not all of it. Having a child is what it took for me to realize that, and I would never suggest that my life is better in a "better than yours" sense. Just better now for me and my family. All I want on my tombstone (or urn) is some statement that my family knew without a doubt that I loved them and would do anything for them. Even setting aside my own career ambitions to be present every day.

The answer to this question is: yes, if you are married to someone like ME!

I already had a go at this one last time around. All I'm going to say is I've been taken advantage of by my bosses and co-workers most of my career because I don't have kids. I am always designated the slack picker-upper, and I am never recognized for it. It's just expected of me for being a bachelor and a responsible individual. I wouldn't so much mind being the slack picker-upper on occasion, if I was in turn rewarded for it somehow.

On the other hand, there were a couple of times where it would have been REALLY NICE if someone covered for me in my times of strife. Alas, I'm not allowed that luxury. I wish my CD had been available to explain to my family why I had to write headlines and taglines on the weekend of my grandmother's funeral.

@ Childless: It is not the fault of working parents that you were taken advantage of. Quite bitching and stick up for yourself man. You are the only one to blame for allowing yourself to be taken advantage of like that. You should have told your CD to shove it, but you didn't.

As a creative who's had a nice career filled with 90-hour weeks AND mad dashes home to take my kid to the doctor or whatever, I've never understood our industry's obsession with "greatness." I mean, come on. It's advertising. Ask anyone outside of the industry who Dan Wieden or Bogusky or Clow is, and the vast majority will reply with a blank stare. Explain who they are to those people, and they'll reply with "oh, they made some commercials." End of story.

I am 34 years old, have been a new media designer my whole life and have been trying to get into Advertising for the past 2 years. Why? it seems a little more rewarding both financially and creatively. It's a little more prestigious as well. I have a newborn son whom I can't get enough of, and I resent having to work 9 to 6 every day.

This article brought a tear to my eye. Is advertising really that horrible? new media aka web design is not where I want to be in the ears to come. this is bad.

Freelance and kids. Still doing it BUT wanting a full time job now. It's hard to bounce ideas off of your 5 and 8 year olds. I love all aspects of this career and children mix!

Boguskyswife has it right. My BF (of a decade) and I both have our businesses. We can barely keep our work, relationship, and social lives in order and keep the pets fed. A kid? Please. A full-time "wife" - be it a husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, paid help, whatever - is essential to be totally driven and totally cared for/caring for.

Once one of us is willing to step down (if ever) and we are ok with the financial situation, we will change. until then - no kids here.

Good comments here.

I liked "greatness?"'s comment about the industry as a whole. There's a lot of self-congratulatory BS in this industry. And truly, no one cares about who did ads. Many people skip past them on their PVR to get to what they're really interested in.

As a father with a 1 year old and a Creative Director that seldom works late I can say balance is about who you are and whats important to you. If you're working 90+ hr work weeks, that's no ones fault but your own. You allowed yourself to be put in that position. This is a voluntary profession. If you force those around you to have more balance and work that way, it catches on. If you get fired from jobs that demand crazy hours, you're probably better off.

To the people that complain about picking up slack - just say no, parents or not those people have work to do. If you allow yourself to be taken advantage of, that's nobody's fault but your own.

As another commenter said, it's a means to an end. For whatever reason, people in advertising take their jobs way to seriously. It's ultimately not that important. Play the game, make some money, retire as young as humanly possible and cultivate relationships with other people. Be they your kids or not.

One thing is for sure, Kids do enrich your life. They add perspective you never knew existed. Sure, they're not for everyone, but to deny their benefit is to deny your subconscious biological imperative to procreate. Besides, when you're retired and bored and have seen the world, what else are you gonna live for? Award winning advertising?

Give me a break.

You know who gets shit done? Moms get shit done.

Moms are fast because they have to be.

Moms move it though and move on.

Moms do twice the work in half the time.

Plus, because we're women, we've also learned we have to do it twice as well to shut all those jack ass guys up.

And you know why we leave at 5? Because we're not online surfing porn all day. Sure, we're ordering Halloween costumes and shit from Pottery Barn, but that takes a lot less time.

Here's what Moms do when they're not working in advertising:

Clean up barf.
Clean toilets.
Wipe noses.
Wipe asses.
Change diapers.
Change wet sheets.
Take out the trash.
Pick up after the dog.

In comparison, advertising is a breeze and a blast.

You want something done fast, right and without a lot of whining? Give it to a Mom.

It seems as though you are very proud of your incredibly productive life of servitude but i have to be honest with you - that just sounds AWFUL to me. God bless ya, keep making them babies so I don't have to.

@Out by 5:01: Amen to that. I share a home office with my wife/mother-of-two and I'm consistently shocked at the amount of work she gets done in a day. From time to time she needs to fire up the Blackberry after picking up the kids at school but that's to be expected. She's at the top of her game, manages hers and my businesses, is a great mom and does it all with freakish efficiency.

Damn, Lots of low blows. I got two kids, the first one at the age of 21 while I was still in college and my second a couple years later. All I can say is I'm thankful to be surrounded by stand up people. The people Ive worked with have enjoyed watching my kids grow up and also know i work my ass off every day. It def aint easy to raise kids but, and it def it aint easy to run a business. But thats why I surround myself with top notch folks.

I have three. Philosophy founders each have two.. we all go to work everyday and work hard. Kids give us new perspectives.. perspectives those without can't fully understand. Being a parent has opened-up doors with clients. Hard to advertise a Montesorri school without having school-aged children and connecting with the subject in a way that's authentic.

We all balance home and work. Our agency values family first. Take care of it first in front of all other things. Happy home life = happy work life. And those without kids.. well.. if you have to leave to let your dog out... then that's the priority. When we rented space from Pure Brand, they allowed their pets in the office. Super cool.

Having kids certainly cut down on the number of 2am nights at the office.. But the shift happened there.. Just take the work home. You can do great work anywhere.. anytime.. just pick it up again after the kiddos are asleep.

All of this "People without kids just don't understand" stuff reminds me of the rhetoric that comes out of the Christian Right. "If you don't have a personal relationship with Christ, you cant possibly understand my intentions. It's a faith thing" I have two kids and I love them to death but I'm honest enough with myself to admit that I'm a product of evolution. The feeling of pride and connection that I get with my kids is a chemical reaction in my brain that was selected for over millions of years. It is good for the species for us to connect with our kids so that feeling was selected for. You are a meat bag who's sole purpose is to procreate - that's how nature designed you. Some of us chose to give in to that pressure and others decided to live a life of disposable income and constant travel. Stop with all the mystical bullshit.

Jaysus (pun intended) - now we're bringing religion into this?

The argument has nothing to do with the Christian Right (there's some Freudian transference for you) - it has everything to do with experience. If I've never led a creative team, how could I possibly understand all the upsides and pitfalls? if I've never managed an agency, if I've never driven a car, if I've never lived in Denver, etc. etc.

As mentioned before, I've worked in this biz both without and with kids. If you've juggled kids and career, you have a level of experience. If you haven't, you don't have that experience. That's not an indictment of the childless nor an advocacy of those who chose to have kids - it's an advocacy of experience as an input to judgment.

- e

Eric, your point, the way I understand it, was that people without kids simply can't grasp the amount of work involved, which is not what "Tom" is responding to. His post is not addressing the mechanics of juggling a career and children (which I have no doubt is very difficult) - the way I read his post, it's referring to the people that claim that those of us who've chosen not to spread the seed just don't "get it" and will never get it. That there are rewards beyond what can be humanly explained to those who haven't experienced child rearing. That there is something bigger that occurs between a parent and his/her offspring that no one can understand but parents. Something greater than the sum of it's parts. His rebuttal is that it's just science, just nature - I agree with him. I would even go further and say that the "something bigger" is partially a delusion that those with kids indulge themselves in as a way of rationalizing all that they've given up. But after all, I have no kids, so I don't get it.

It's a baby thing. You wouldn't understand.

Frank, many of the parents here seem to take a relatively balanced point of view, don't expect anyone to give them more than their due and want to work through the complexity of the issue. No one is saying you wouldn't understand, you are refusing to even try. And, as proven by your last comment, you're the condescending one. I'd hate for someone like you to get the last word because it doesn't even pertain to the issue at hand. The original question was "Can you have kids AND a great advertising career." but you're too busy answering something related to "How badly do you want to punch the parents in the ad industry?" to even have much of a point besides scathing comments without any objectivity. Sounds like you have a beef that you might want to take up elsewhere. Good luck with that.

To those ad folks with kids, keep up the great work. And to those ad folks without kids, keep up the great work.

I was making a joke based on a reference to the latest South Park episode "It's a Jersey thing". Condescending? I guess it could be interpreted that way but honestly it sounds like you're attacking me personally rather than taking issue with the substance of my comments. Read back what I've written, what exactly are do you consider scathing? None of it was written with malice or with the intent of hurting anyone's feelings. If you disagree, give me an example. I could be wrong.

Also, if you take offense to me posting a response to a comment rather than the original post, I'm sorry but that's what happens in blogs. It becomes a discussion and the focus often shifts - that's part of what makes it fun and interesting - to me at least.

My my, the parents here are sure touchy about something they voluntarily took on... expressing inner feelings of doubt about their chosen life of slavery to their spawn?

Wouldn't you?

To anyone who thinks being a parent turns their world into doubt and slavery, I hope you never have kids. Please. The world doesn't need anymore negativity. Sounds like you're pretty empty yourself.

And, just to reiterate, if you don't have kids, you don't understand. How arrogant to think you could. For all the good and bad, there is no experience that relates.

And Tom S.--you sound like such a warm guy, your kids must be very lucky.

Once again, you either agree that having kids is an inherently positive endeavor or you're a negative person who is empty inside. God help us.

Anyway, at this point we're going in circles but I learned some things from this discussion. Another thought provoking and fun conversation brought to us by the Denver Egotist. Thanks fellas.

@Tom
Evolution is a metaphysical research program. The oligarchy loves the fact that so many people are totally sold on their program without any evidence, all it takes are many years of tradition and conditioning programs. The evidence in the text books does not exist in context to the real scientific evidence found in the field, the past 100 yrs people have been asked to essentially imagine these long periods of time and the transition of species from one form to another because the ILLUSTRATIONS in text books convince them. There are billions of missing links. One fact that is overlooked: evolution has never been witnessed nor has life been observed to come from non-life. Evolution also violates many laws of physics including Thermodynamics. Do the research and let the facts lead you. ps. Don't believe the Hawkings hype.

And you sound like a sad, judgmental person "slavery", I hope you find some inner peace some day and no longer have to put others down to feel superior and get through the day. That must suck. For the record, I call bullshit on your assumption that I am not a warm person simply because I don't look at the world with the eyes of an 8 year old girl who believes in magic and fairy dust.

Yes, I believe most people would consider my kids to be very lucky to have a loving and attentive father and mother to take care of them and raise them. My kids are healthy, happy and adored by their family. However, I don't use my kids to define my own life, I dont use them as the sole measure of my own success, I dont use them as a status symbol, I don't use them to give my own life meaning and I don't use them in order to feel like I've done something special. They are kids, I did what i was put on the earth to do and procreated. That's it. Do I love them any less because I'm honest with myself and admit that? Well, are presents at Christmas any less awesome after you find out that there is no Santa Clause? Of course not.

Thanks for the note "eh". I disagree with almost everything you've said but like Lise S, I think this conversation has run it's course and isn't really doing anyone any good. Take care.

This is too funny. Lisa, you must work in PR. You're very adept at seeing what you want to see and spinning it thusly. No one said it's black or white--the statement was about you and others talking about child rearing as slavery and remorse. How could you possibly know? Nothing in that is a judgement call--you either have the experience to say or you don't. So you and others are passing judgment on something you have no first hand experience with. You're not qualified to say. Got it?

And Tom, you sound like a robot. That's my only point. Must really suck to be you, to be able to view life in such a clinical way. I know very well that we're "meat bags," and think all religion is make believe, but personally, I try to look for small evidence magic everywhere. Otherwise, what's left, advertising?

Lighten up all--and get back to work.

WWWWEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Slavery,

I'm not sure why my profession matters but I'm an Art Director in Boulder and volunteer at the Colorado Coalition for the Homeless twice a week. Also, I'm not sure if you just don't bother to read the comments or you are getting confused but Bruce declared that the parents on here are displaying remorse and doubt through their comments - not me. As a matter of fact, like Frank, I would challenge you to show me one comment of mine that wasn't in the spirit of a healthy debate. It is you and your ilk that sling personal attacks when faced with an apposing point of view.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Tom, you should be proud that you're a good, loving father with what sounds like a great family. Being honest with yourself and embracing the world as a knowledgeable human being who approaches his journey with a critical and scientific attitude makes you anything but a Robot. The robots are those that delude themselves, and give in to dogma. You're kids are very lucky.

@Lisa S: Since you asked--your comment, "Wouldn't you?" isn't in response to and agreement with Bruce's hateful assumption? If not, my bad. But seems pretty clear you're supporting his view.

So who's deluding who? You know absolutely nothing about me or my ilk, but as we've seen, you certainly have no qualms commenting on things you know nothing about. Should I have called Tom a robot? No. But to suggest that life is all biology is a pretty limited text book view of existence--it's simply just what we've been able to explain thus far. But life is not all fact. It's just not. And I guess I'm just not prepared to agree that the unconscious or unknown is all said and done for us "meat bags." Kind of a sad, unimaginative view if you ask me.

Because someone has an analytical and scientifically based outlook on the world, does not mean they're unimaginative or limited - and it's certainly not sad. What would lead you to that conclusion?. Believing that all experiences are chemical reactions or that the good feeling Tom gets when he plays with his kids is a human trait selected for over millions of years is not inconsistent with a sense of wonder for the world around us. In other words, it doesn't have to be unexplainable magic for it to be incredible and fascinating. For example - do you have to believe in God to appreciate the incredible ecosystem of which we are a part? I don't think anyone on this board would argue that you do. So, why would Tom's life be filled with any less imagination, happiness, wonder or exploration than yours because he chooses to appreciate things from an analytical angle rather than a "it's amazing and I can't explain it" angle?

What was hateful about my presumption, "slavery"? Not all parents I know exhibit the defensiveness I've seen in many of the posts on this thread, hence the "parents here". The parents I know who don't see that their reproducing is something that gives them an exalted view of the world, but accept the different responsibilities it brings. A different perspective as well, but not necessarily a "better" one, as has been put forth in several of the "holier than thou" posts from some of the parents here that inspired my initial not-hateful post.

Forget exactly who said this, some huge up by the bootstraps billionaire or other. Doesn't answer the question either.

"No one ever went to the grave wishing they spent more time at work."

Family trumps work, you'll never know it if you don't have one. If you achieve one it will inspire you to do great work, not constantly bail on your job. If it doesn't do that it's not a great family. Great family nurtures and supports you as you do it.

Whoever way up there in the comments said the question is the problem and it should be "Can you have a great family and a career in advertising?" was spot on.

I love kids, I love dogs, I love cats too. I am honestly suspicious of anyone who does not like or even "hates" either of the first two. Not liking cats I can sort of understand even though it's not me. Hate consumes creativity, those who talk about it up this column should really work at losing it for something more constructive, like kids.

If you work 15 hour days 6-7 days a week by the way, you will never achieve that great, nurturing family or the love and respect of a young child. Your dog will have issues too. As stated again up there in these comments somewhere, if you ain't done it you can't fathom it, so don't knock it.

Pete, I don't think folks are advocating working 15 hours a day 6-7 days a week. What some of the frustration expressed towards some parents is that sometimes folks w/o kids are forced to work extra hours while folks with kids are let off the hook because "well, they have kids".

As you note, folks can have dogs, cats, horses, even motorcycles or classic cars that are the "family" in their lives, but if they need to leave work early, or miss a crucial planning meeting because of that sort of activity, it's not seen in the same positive light as dealing with the kids one chose to have.

I note "chose to have" because people often pull out the equivalent of "what about the CHILDREN" type of argument when one calls attention to the fact that parents are leaving non-parents with an unequal share of the weight to carry. I don't advocate neglecting children at all, furthest thing from it. I think when people choose to have kids, those kids SHOULD be the focus of the parents lives. I just don't feel that people who have chosen NOT to have children should so frequently have to carry the weight for those who HAVE chosen to have children. And those w/o children should not be seen in a negative light when they need to leave early or miss a meeting for something that is equally important and fulfilling to them as children are to parents.

And in this overpopulated world, I don't think it's a relevant claim to make that people have to keep having kids to help on the family farm, help the parents when they're old, or just plain old "be fruitful and multiply" (that last is NOT a crack at religion—frankly, I consider myself more religiously minded than the average person these days, but in no way dogmatically so...)

Nice one Bruce. I didn't have the patience to read all the post but it always cracks me up - in this day and age - when people continue to rigidly define "Family" as a wife/husband and kids. Family to me is whoever you can't wait to get home to - whoever is in your heart all day while you're at work or running around in the world. Whether that's just your wife and the home you've made together or a seething pile of sticky offspring - it's different for different people.

Another pet peeve of mine is when people say they've "achieved" something by having kids. It's not hard to make kids. As a matter of fact, it's WAY too easy. Try going your whole life WITHOUT impregnating anyone. Now that's an achievement!

They force people to look at their advertisements. The important thing about advertising is to get the word out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxmE2qMbYRU&p=06C0E7DCA9F81E79

Any industry that demands an insane number of working hours to the detriment of being able to be a normal person* just to promote the Consumption of More Stuff is intrinsically immoral. That's why I've been trying to get out of advertising for years. Alas, it's what I do best, and I haven't been able to find another paying gig that will enable me to support my family. (My husband was injured at work & is on disability.)

What's missing in this discussion is that it's harder for mothers in advertising than dads. When I had my babies, it went against me in salary and reviews, though I still was bringing in great results for clients and awards. When a male coworker's wife had babies, he got bigger raises, even though he had lower performance results than I did. I was shocked when he accidentally let his salary slip -- 20% more than mine!

*Single = dating, hanging with friends, volunteering, continuing education, whatever...Married = time with partner & kids in addition to all of that.